Tow vehicle help - Page 2

learning · 08-21-2007, 08:06 PM

Hey everyone,
You have all been such a blessing. I had no idea I would get such detailed responses. Thank you.
The absolute amazing discovery happened when we took our truck in for manuel air bags. The young man came out from the install with a look that could kill. The blankety blank people who install our hitch, had just used the 4 bolts to hold it down with nuts and gee, forgot to brace it to the frame. We know once again that our Dear Lord had us in His hand for the bucking I originally complained about was the truck bed and the fifth wheel bouncing back & forth. We drove this in the rain and if we had to use our brakes quickly, that MS could have came over the truck and killed us, & possibly others on the road. I called the dealership and the assistant said the owner was not there but no he said we could not get our money back. We had contacted a lawyer friend for our rights and he said to tell them to take the hitch and return our $1,300. That even was an outrageous amount for a 15K hitch and we have a 1600 LB weight.
Now we have to find a lawyer in central Texas to help us. I will write to the Action Line with Good Sam and from there, I don't know. My computer has been on the fritz, that's why Iam answering so late.
Sorry. Please return with any help. Thanks,

rotaxman · 08-21-2007, 10:19 PM

Learning

I'm very happy that things went as well as they did with that first pull you are lucky that it didn't just rip the bottom of your bed out and leave the truck. If the break away switch and related parts were working correctly you might of got by with just tearing up your truck and trailer.

Again I'm glad that it turned out as good as it did eventhough it wasn't good. I think the dealer owe's you and hope that you collect.

What was the name of the outfit that installed your hitch?? I'm sure that everyone would like to know so that they will be sure and stay away from them.

As always good camping

Joyce and Jerry

bstark · 08-21-2007, 11:17 PM

Do any of the rest of you wonder how these guys (unscrupulous dealers) avoid costly lawsuits when they seem to be ablt to pull this stuff time and time again?

Can you imagine for a moment the accident investigators with their clipboards making note of the fact there was no physical connection between the fifth wheel hitch and the frame of the truck?

I know as individuals we need to take responsibility for some stuff but what if this were members of our family who decided to go RV'ing and trusted their local dealer to get them set-up and we lived too far away to check it all out for them to make sure they'd done it all correctly?

Stuff like this makes my blood boil!

rotaxman · 08-22-2007, 12:07 AM

Bruce

Boy do I second that it is amazing the number of DA's that hang a sign and say they are professionals when they don't know a screw driver from a hammer. Or for that matter know anything about anything except cashing those checks.

As always good camping

Joyce and Jerry

rverdlm · 08-22-2007, 11:00 AM

I would go after the hitch manufacturer. They have some responsibility because they allow the dealer to be an installer. If nothing else this dealer would loose this product for sale.

Motor31 · 08-22-2007, 11:53 AM

It's silly to go after the manufacturer of the hitch. They have no control over the situation if the dealer does not follow instructions later on or abuses the equipment unless the manufacturer is directly supervising them during each and every install. That makes as much sense as suing the auto manufacturer of a driver because he used their car he bought 3 years before to rear end you. Place responsibility where it belongs, on the people who screwed it up not on someone who was not in a position to be able to prevent it.

This is a sales and installation error. Sales because they didn't sell the correct piece of equipment (15k hitch for a 16+k load) and installation as they didn't follow manufacturers instructions for putting it in the truck. That's not the manufacturer's fault and there is no reason to sue them. Certainly send them a letter of complaint outlining the circumstances and perhaps they will drop the dealer from their list or retrain their installation section.

rverdlm · 08-22-2007, 12:59 PM

I didn't say to sue the manufacturer. What I tried to say was to notify the manufacturer of the hitch so that they will prevent the dealer from selling their product or train them to do the install properly. A manufacturer can not sell a product through a network of dealers and then just wash their hands of responsibility for their product. I would think that if they are a responsible company they would put some pressure on the dealer/installer for a refund of the installation charge. As to the hitch not being rated high enough for the trailer both the seller and the buyer have responsibility for that, but IMHO the buyer more so.

RonS · 08-22-2007, 03:19 PM

Learning - What size hitch will you be changing too?

learning · 09-11-2007, 09:00 PM

Hi ya all.
My computer again went on the blitz and found out I had 68 problems all brought on or not caught by the Norton Anti Virus. Scarry!
My update....... We did take the 5er to the dealer who is North Texas RV with a side sales called Best Value RV in Krum (Denton) Texas. The owner, Ken, gave us back our money and an additional $40 for gas, and said the wrong size hitch and incorrect install was just an oversight. (GASP!). But the topper is my husband went to check the batteries .. and all 6, 6volt batteries were dry as a bone. The dealer said everything was gone thru and was in top shape. Again, we must be aware that there are people out there like them and don't just take their word for it. I just don't know how people can sleep at night knowing what they do, but we were at fault for not checking everything at the dealership before we pulled out so I am not trying to place the blame solely on them.
Hoping to see you all on the road some day soon. May the wind be at your back.

Motor31 · 09-12-2007, 11:45 AM

Learning,

Check out a product called AVG. It's an antivirus program and they have a very effective free version. I've been using it for over a year and it's been fantastic at keeping little creepy crawly things out of the computer. Besides the price is right and it does NOT put a ton of crap on the computer like Norton and McAfee (Symantic) does so it stays running more efficiently.

I also have ZoneAlarm (a firewall protector) and PC Tools Spyware Doctor installed both of which are also free.

Gemstone · 09-12-2007, 05:02 PM

One issue not mentioned in detail was cost. For less than the cost of a modifed 1 Ton, you can be the proud owner of a HDT, fully modified, ready to tow anything you can imagine, for as long as you are able to drive. A MDT probably makes more sense for pulling our units.... until you get to the cost factor.
We too went with a 3500...Dodge SRW and are now moving up to a HDT.

Loaded pin weight was heavy for the Dodge, so air bags were installed to level the truck. For lack of good mileage on the Dodge, a chip was installed..which just happened to increase torque and HP as well. Then for slowing power (after a white knuckle/seat pucker situation) we installed a Jake Brake. So, now we can pull level, have plenty of pulling power, have plenty of slowing power for down grades...but what about stopping power ???? There is not enough brakes there for me to feel comfortable with 19K pounds behind me, thus our decision to make one last vehicle change...for far less $$$ than we have invested in the Dodge we now have a HDT. All is not lost however...we are keeping the Dodge for DW's commute vehicle, and to pull our 20' Motorcycle "garage/shop".
Anyboby looking for a displaced 2004 Jetta for a Toad ?

"Learning", we wish you well on you journey. And do I understand correctly...your hitch installer only bolted the hitch to the bed of the P/U ?

Regards
Gemstone

Motor31 · 09-13-2007, 11:00 AM

I posted this up in the HDT section as well.

For those who would like to learn about or just look at class 8 (HDT) tow vehicles there is the 07 annual HDT rally being held in Wichita Kansas during the week of Sept. 30th through Oct 6th.

You do not need an HDT to learn about them, all are welcome including folks who don't even have an RV. We have had folks stay in a local motel for the rally while they became acquainted with these vehicles and how they are used.

The rally is being held at the Blasi Campground and at Doonan's Peterbuilt dealership, both of which are located across the street from each other off of highway 54 / 400 on the west side of Wichita.

rdunk · 09-13-2007, 04:12 PM

On a post of this subject area, the responses are usually based upon each of our personal experiences with our own equipment, and include some insight to our own fears and feelings of safety. The Dodge mentioned above has never been rated even close for some of the heaver Suites, yet many feel completely safe using a Dodge for their tow vehicle. I don't know about this year, but prior, only the Ford F350, with Towboss, has had high enough factory ratings for these heavier Suites ( rated for 26,000 GCWR, and up to 19,200 Max Tow Weight, depending upon cab config, and 2x or 4x drive).

CAT scale weights for our fully loaded for fulltiming RE3 showed we are just under everything, except our GCWR was about 250lbs over, which is easily manageable. We feel completely safe, and comfortable using the TowBoss Ford for our towing. Neither my wife, nor I, have any desire to have a HDT, or similar, as our fulltime driver. But then that is just us, for the few that do use those big trucks seem to like them just fine.

Someone mentioned a concern about the tow vehicle stopping 19,000lbs, I am not sure I understand that concern, because fifth wheels are designed to stop themselves. If you have a good brake controller, and good brakes on the 5er, then the 5er should stop itself.

Of course, if you are really concerned about stopping the 5er safely and quickly, then disc brakes are much better than band brakes. I have seen comparison tests on the internet with results that show disc brakes stop the 5er in a much shorter distance. Mor/ryde talks about disc brakes stopping in up to a 30% shorter distance. Now that could mean the difference between a safe stop, and having an unfortunate situation. A good friend just had their original Suite band brakes replaced with disc brakes. After towing with the discs, he said he would never tow again without disc brakes, because they stop so much better. Our RE3 has discs, and I have gotten on them hard a couple of times. Great stopping power

Coincidentally, many, if not most, of those I have met who use the HDT's, for 5er TV's, are former truckers who would drive nothing else, and who are sources of good experience and help for anyone considering getting a larger tow vehicle.

FWIW!

Gemstone · 09-13-2007, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Someone mentioned a concern about the tow vehicle stopping 19,000lbs, I am not sure I understand that concern, because fifth wheels are designed to stop themselves. If you have a good brake controller, and good brakes on the 5er, then the 5er should stop itself.

Yes, and I'm sure that given enough pavement, the Dodge and trailer would eventually stop. We've all read about someone who was literally pushed through an intersection because there was not enough braking power on a light duty truck even with properly applied trailer brakes.
My point in sharing the story was to encourage folks to do more homework than a lot of us have done...prior to purchase. And that I personally do not feel safe pulling 19K with the previously mentioned Dodge, even 'tho the truck will do it, and slow down nicely, even while being 4K overweight. Will a light duty (1 Ton) truck do the job, probably....will it do the job safely ? In my opinion, probably not.

Regards
Gemstone

sigo'suite · 09-13-2007, 05:51 PM

Historically, this has always been the most contentious topic on the "Forum".

In reality, it is probably best summed up by the insertion of this statement: "IN MY OPINION!"

Motor31 · 09-14-2007, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigo'suite

Historically, this has always been the most contentious topic on the "Forum".

In reality, it is probably best summed up by the insertion of this statement: "IN MY OPINION!"

I have to agree here, particularly when folks continue to ignore the published GVW and GCVW of the tow vehicle in question. The numbers from the manufacturer are out there and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to apply them. That's where opinion and actual certification collide and you are left with the choice of believing opinion or the folks who built and certified the tow vehicle through the Dept of Transportation. They are also the only ones who can make a change to the GVW and GCVW. After market add on's like chips, air bags and helper springs do not change the figures or add additional capacity that the vehicle was not certified for.

The nice thing about having the numbers and understanding the ramifications is not having to go to a PM to get your side across so as to not have it rebutted or relying on derogatory terms such as "weight police" to make a point.

Look at the numbers, get actual weight from a scale, contact your local DMV if you like for additional info. Just get the real world info and not opinion to base a decision regarding your safety on.

Semi trailers also have their own brakes, but a semi with a trailer does not stop as short as a semi alone same for a light duty tow vehicle vs the PU with a trailer. Weight plus momentum still have to deal with friction of the brakes and the coefficient of friction of the pavement. If you exceed the weight capacity you are losing braking power as the weight will still be pushing.

bstark · 09-14-2007, 11:00 AM

Learning's original post was requesting help with what to do with the 250 they presently own to hopefully avoid moving UP to a 350 (presumably dually) truck and they certainly got an eyeopener of info back.

JMHO, but sometimes the original poster gets forgotten in our rebuttels to each other's posts regarding little trucks vs big trucks!

To be fair to "Learning", he/she is probably at the very same juncture we all were at one time or another. Those of us with larger trucks would do well to remember in many cases unscrupulous dealers/salesmen do a team blitz on folks entering the RV'ing lifestyle which tends to overwhelm the unsuspecting.

The facts are irrefutable:
/ Detroit generated tow ratings assigned to pick-ups generally exclude ANY of the big three 350/3500 series and down from towing the heavier Doubletree products loaded for real world usage.
/ There are literally "thousands" of folks towing those types of heavy trailers with 250/2500 series and up pick-ups quite successfully and perhaps (for them) even comfortably.

How do we reconcile these two "polar opposites" when posting on these forums? Firstly, JMHO, we need to remember that we are all kindred spirits enjoying RV'ing.

Providing useful and accurate info need not take a "lecturing-to-the-ignorant" bent, but rather an offer of an alternative then sit back and wait for requests for further info to support that alternative. No request should equate to no more aggressive flood of info!

Foregoing has been my OPINION only and is offered in the sincere hope that as RV'ers we have mutual respect as one of our basic tenets.

JohnandMarla · 09-14-2007, 12:04 PM

We have a 2006 3500 Silverado dually. Last summer we went over a 11,000 and some pass in Colorado. It did an awesome job of towing and braking. We have the trailair system and as long as we keep the appropriate amount of air in it there is no bucking-not enough air and it makes for a miserable ride. (We keep ours around 65 but this is determined but how much weight you have) We are very careful not to overload the MS.

learning · 10-10-2007, 09:49 PM

Wow Motor 31,
You guys are just too cool. I just had a computer repair whizz check out my laptop and lo and behold, he said it was the $60+ Norton Internet Security that buzzed my computer so he took it off and loaded the AVG and Wala!! (spelled wrong I know) it was fixed. What a miracle.
That was so very wonderful of you's to give me the information..
May you be blessed in all you do.
Sincerely
Still learning

keithandpenne · 10-11-2007, 04:50 PM

Our 05 36TK3 had been safely pulled a little over 18000 miles since we took delivery by our factory stock '96' Dodge 3500 - 4x4 - V10 - auto trans with 3:73 gears.

It pulled the load very easily but I did not like the braking ability of the unit. It originally had a cheap brake controller which I replaced with a Prodigy and it made day and night difference, but stopping was still sort of "will it or won't it."

Defensive driving and "luck" helped get us safely to where we are today.

I have followed the HDT forum for almost 5 years, while attempting to encourage my co-pilot into seeing the virtues of a big toter. Bottom line, she did not want to drive one and would not become a "chauffeured" or "stay at home" lady, even though an HDT could replace our old Dodge for half of the cost of a new puck-up.

I have looked at and driven the new Dodge 4500. Like the Cummins and 6 speed trans with the factory exhaust brake. Wish I could have hooked up to a 5th wheel and pulled it a few miles. Nice truck but it is still a cab-chassis and the gross combined weight rating with their best (deepest) gear (4:10) it is still rated 7000 lbs under the F450 and the out the door price after adding a bed or box is way more than the Ford. The back seat area of the Ford is huge compared to the Dodge unless you go to the Mega cab which only comes with the short box. Hopefully, Dodge will see the light for next year.

Bottom line, after our first pull with our new F450, from KC to Ft Worth, I could not believe the difference in how it handled the same trailer and load we had been pulling. The Ford factory brake controller worked very smoothly (better than the Prodigy) and sure gave us a higher comfort level, especially after I35W traffic came to a quick halt in Ft Worth and the rig came to a very quick and controlled stop. We also noted that there was very little of the previously experienced rough road "chuck or chugging" we had experienced on the same roads, and we attributed it to the longer wheel base from the crew cab which changed the roads "harmonics."

For those who are using a truck that is under-rated for the load your pulling, I would only suggest you find someone who will let you make a "test drive" pulling your trailer with a truck that is rated for your trailer and its load. I think you too will be as surprised as we were at the new level of comfort and safety it will provide.