Am I a lucky guy or what?

[47hook]

2 weeks ago my DW and I came to an agreement to wait until 2010 to trade our 2003 GMC in for a Dually. Our local Chevy dealer had an 07 and an 08 on their lot, and last Friday we stopped to look at one up close, since we have only really seen pictures. Well, about 3 minutes after I told the salesman we were just looking, DW is discussing deals!!!

So, today I finalized the deal for a 08 3500HD 4X4 Dually, Duramax, LTZ with a bunch of good stuff. Am trading in our GMC and a 92 Vette…yeah, I know. But after 15-16 years of ownership have only put on 45K. Frees up lots of room in the garage and over all we are happy with the deal. We will pick up the Chevy Wednesday.

Now all I have to do is sell 5 Eagle wheels, 2 brand new Goodyear 265/75-16E Wrangler Silent Armor, 2 tires about less than ½ worn after 38K+/- miles and 2 that are about 70% worn. And a 16K SuperGlide hitch. Then I’ll have even more room and maybe $’s for fuel!

Question: what are you folks towing, 5th wheel wise/weight wise? Thanks…

[Motor31]

I am using a rig that is pretty much overkill for the weight I have but far more comfortable and capable than our old 1 ton.

As far as your new truck is concerned the salesman should have been able to provide the spec sheet for what your truck is rated to tow to include the options such as 4x4. Do NOT take their word verbally, have them show you the document. The options in the truck such as cab style, 4x4, dual wheels, transmission and rear end ratio all have an impact on both the GVW and GCVW. The dealer has the spec sheet to show how much weight the truck is rated for to carry and tow.

The data I have is for the 07 models and doesn't include the turbo diesel engine. The gas model had a tow rating from 11,200 lbs to a high of 12,800 all of which is under the GVW of the MS 36TK3. I am guessing the diesel would have a higher load rating.

[hitchup]

Who needs a Vette these days anyhow.

Why is it that Salesmen don't always know where to find towing specs, at least when it comes to 5thw's. We had trouble finding them when we were looking for the 2005 1 tons. Checked at dealers in FL & GA. Ended up the annual Trailer Life tow ratings booklet had the best information.

When we bought our Elite (GVWR 18.5k) decided we'd have to eventually get a bigger tow vehicle. Was really hard to keep it on the "light" side under Chevy's 16,400 rating. DH is such a pack rat (me, too).

Decided last fall, after much research & removing even more furniture that we would wait until our 3500 was paid off & then buy something bigger. Maybe a nice used M2 FL. But then Ford came out with the 08 F450 early. Since we drove by a Ford dealer every Sat to shop, I suggested we stop for a "brochure". By the following Fri, DH was driving our new one home.

Ours tows 24k, so we're well under with a cushion of 22%. And from the "forum experts" that's better for many reasons.

[anijet]

We have very close to the same setup as yours and we scale at 26,040 topped with fuel, fresh water, empty holding tanks and all our stuff.

[anijet]

Went out to the truck and got the weight slips.

Truck: IIRC only had 20 gallons of fuel.
Steer Axle 4520
Drive Axle 3560
Total weight 8080

Truck and 36TK3: As picked up from dealer with only overnight stuff.
Steer axle 4500
Drive axle 6840
Trailer axles 12240
Total weight 23580

Truck and 36TK3: Fueled and loaded for full time.
Steer axle 4720
Drive axle 7940
Trailer axles 13380
Total weight 26040

I figure the pin weight right at 4,000# because of the fuel difference. I have a 50 gallon TransferFlow tank. The total trailer is right at 17,600#

Trailer weight placard shows UVW of 14,430#, only about a 1,000 pounds short.

[47hook]

Picked it up yesterday and only had a chance to put 30 miles or so on it. It is the quietest and best ridding truck/vehicle we've owned. I'm now trying to wade through all the owners' manual stuff. Hope I can find a ten year old to help me with the touch screen gps and radio

Trying to decide on a hitch now. Looked at several of the common brand names, but found an interesting one: B&W turnover ball with companion hitch. Any words of wisdom?

Can hardly wait for the first tow.

[RGordon]

I hate to tell all of you, but the weight police is going to get all of you GM owners. It appears that you are all over gross weight. I had to go with the F350 Tow Boss just to get into the 26,000 gross rating and looks like the GMC & Chevy's are rated for about 23,000 gross weight and Dodge is no better. Looks like the manufacturers are underrating their products if they are doing the towing job sufficiently or we just taking a chance and ignoring the name plate ratings of our vehicles. I have always been a Chevy man and would have one today if they would safety tow my 38RL3 MS.

[47hook]

They have to catch us first

[47hook]

And on another note, what your GCWR is is immaterial. It is what you weigh...you may have a GCWR of 26K, but what is your actual weight?

And please, let us not forget, it is an OEM rating, not a law, physical or otherwise.

[wingnut60]

I use the B&W underbed mount and the Companion Hitch--they work very well.

The mount at 30K is overkill, but the Companion at 18K is marginal.

But the combo is working very, very well on my f350/36 ms.

And I can take it out of my truck bed (barely) by myself. And have had no problems with its operation. The hitch lockup is positive, and if you put the lock pin in the hole, there should be no way to lose the trailer.
And, the lever is not easily available to anyone walking by to just pull on it to release.

[Motor31]

47hook,

You might want to do some research on the weight issue. Every state has laws that regulate length, width, height and weight of vehicles. You do not have to be commercial to be in violation of it and the ratings the manufacturer set for the vehicles, both GVW and GCVW if a tow vehicle, are what the enforcement will be based upon. Check your insurance coverage for exclusions if you are towing over weight as well. It's your life, property and liability at issue and finding out about it after the fact would be a very bad thing to have happen. Also keep in mind that what may be legal in one state may not be in another, reciprocity only applies to licensing and registration not equipment violations in the state you happen to be in at the time.

[bstark]

I wouldn't waste any more time obsessing over what you're using to tow your trailer with. Towing safely has a lot more to do with the guy behind the wheel and his/her behaviour than the equipment being used.

Weight police would have you believe that the risk to your lives and others around you is of much greater potential than the nut that's out there towing a commercial trailer at 90 mph and he has absolutely no idea of the state of his trailers tires/brakes/suspension because he just hooked up to that trailer this AM and didn't even do a walk-around but left the yard and put the hammer down to make his next drop/pick-up schedule.

We need to climb on down from the safety podium and remember that for the most part heavy trailers being towed by P/U's have been around for eons with relatively few accidents in proportion to the REST of the motoring public because we OWN this stuff and are, on average, at a more mature age to appreciate the consequences of idiotic behaviour behind the wheel. The larger rated towing vehicles have only become prevelant in numbers of late because someone realized that they could adapt a commercial hauler to perform RV towing duty and achieve a very cost effective solution by buying used and licensing it as an RV.

You won't get any lectures from me as I will continue to be happy to share the road with all of you as a fellow RV'er. My responsibility begins and ends with me and mine alone!

[SuiteWheels]

Well we have just returned from our first big trip in our 38RLS and towed it with our 1 ton dully/ Allison ....and it was just great!

We met another couple at the Oasis RV Resort in Las Vegas who had bought a MS and it was the last 06 38RLS off the line and he had towed his from Albama with the same Chevy 1 ton and he said .....he wouldn't have anything heavier....was very pleased and thought this Allison Transmission was the ONLY way to tow anything! Made me feel better as I was the one worried about not having a heavier TV....but d/h always said his new Chevy 1ton with added air bags and this transmission would do the job and do it good. I'm not going to worry any longer. We went to UT., AZ & NV and now heading home to CA.

Only thing bad that happened was he found a tear in one of the tires and thankfully we were parked or it could have maybe resulted in a blow out on the freeway. Fortunately we had purchased the Good Sam Road Service Ins. and they came out to the Resort within one hr. and changed the tire.

[47hook]

Motor31, I appreciate your concern but I recommend you log onto the Woodalls forum and do a search for a screen name of "Wadcutter". In essence, the only legal requirement a non-commercial vehicle of any description using public roads, as far as weight is concerned, is to abide by roadway weight restrictions, per axle and combined: if the bridge is rated for 10 tons and you weigh 11 tons and are under your GCWR and go across the bridge you did so illegally.

I am not sure were I posted it, but recently my local paper printed an AP article on how many cars are running way over their weight ratings. Be interesting for folks to look at the ratings of your “regular” vehicle and see if you haven’t been exceeding those weights. I see vehicles of all description obviously way over weight, rear ends sagging, tires bulging and off they go.

Anijet, the 03 version of the Allison website lists it’s GWR at 26K, just for info.

As I have posted on this forum, IIRC, and on others, the GW of my 03 GMC and Alfa, and now the current MS was 23,500 to 23, 600#’s and there have been 0 white knuckle events at over 18K towing: east coast to west coast, round trip coast to coast and several shorter trips. Besides liking to have new toys, the reason for trading 2 years before we were going to was to get down to 2 vehicles from 3, take advantage of the sales tax deduction that may go away next year, and since we had reached the WR for the rear wheels/tires and hitch, to rectify that issue so we could load more than a six pack and chips in the MS! Yes I will still be over GCWR, with the Alfa we were over by about 7.5% from GCWR. Now I anticipate it will be about 5% over. If we talk about legalities, how many drivers exceed the posted, for all vehicle types, speed limit? That definitely is a legal limit and the folks that create and police those limits tell us it is for safety purposes. So, have you ever exceeded the speed limits? I know it is apples and oranges, but 5% of 70mph is only 3.5mph. Do you feel, if you have exceeded the speed limit that you are dangerous, unsafe? Been caught and had to pay a fine? When I have seen accidents involving RV’s, I have yet to hear about an overweight condition as being the cause, might have missed it though. Have heard about speed being the cause many, many times…

[Haggis]

Originally Posted by bstark

I wouldn't waste any more time obsessing over what you're using to tow your trailer with. Towing safely has a lot more to do with the guy behind the wheel and his/her behaviour than the equipment being used.

Weight police would have you believe that the risk to your lives and others around you is of much greater potential than the nut that's out there towing a commercial trailer at 90 mph and he has absolutely no idea of the state of his trailers tires/brakes/suspension because he just hooked up to that trailer this AM and didn't even do a walk-around but left the yard and put the hammer down to make his next drop/pick-up schedule.

We need to climb on down from the safety podium and remember that for the most part heavy trailers being towed by P/U's have been around for eons with relatively few accidents in proportion to the REST of the motoring public because we OWN this stuff and are, on average, at a more mature age to appreciate the consequences of idiotic behaviour behind the wheel. The larger rated towing vehicles have only become prevelant in numbers of late because someone realized that they could adapt a commercial hauler to perform RV towing duty and achieve a very cost effective solution by buying used and licensing it as an RV.

You won't get any lectures from me as I will continue to be happy to share the road with all of you as a fellow RV'er. My responsibility begins and ends with me and mine alone!

Bruce.........I could not have said it any better!!!

What have you two been up to?

We just got back from a three week trip around the Gaspe Peninsula.

Was checking the tire pressure and one of the shocks looked like it was at an unusual angle. crawled under the RV. The bracket that holds the shock to the frame had come loose from the weld. A poor welding job. Both supports on each end of the shock were bent. The shock had been bouncing against the inside of the tire. No damage to the tire, looks like I found the problem in time.

Each time I step into our unit something goes haywire. During our trip, it was the bedroom slide and the water pump. The Doubletree dealer in in Quebec City took us right in and had us on our way in four hours,great people to deal with.

That's enough belly aching for one day Keep ....Geoff & Shirley

[Motor31]

47hook,

Before I retired I was a real Police Officer. My particular area of expertise was in traffic enforcement accident investigation. One of the additional duties I had was Commercial Vehicle Enforcement and Haz Mat regulation. While several folks here like to throw out the term "weight police" as if a sarcastic name somehow means the information is not valid, I do suggest you check on it.

You are welcome to believe whatever you want. The numbers and information are available.

[47hook]

With all due respect, and I am not being sarcastic (my neighbor is a LEO, my best friend is retired LEO, etc, and if you have done a search on Woodalls for Wadcutter he is also), please post either a website or a specific Law that I might research. Thank you.

[Motor31]

47hook,

I'm sure your LEO friend can point you to the vehicle equipment statutes for your state to give you an example. If not, then look up the vehicle code for your state.

Arizona is pretty darn disorganized (IMO) as far as their transportation code is concerned. They redid the numbering and organization of the statutes and it's tougher to do research than it was before the reorganization. From what I was told, the laws weren't changed but they are now renumbered and ordered differently than before. This is what I found in AZ doing google searches and only having access to my out dated statute "cheat sheet". I was not able to get the entire statute verbiage, just excerpts which made it harder. I no longer have the print volume of statutes I used to carry with me when working.

In order to differentiate what I write and the quoted statute I'll use a dotted line to show breaks between what I typed and what I pasted.
------------------------------------------------

"28-5431. Definitions

In this article, unless the context otherwise requires:

1. "Declared gross weight" means the gross weight in pounds ascribed to a motor vehicle, trailer, semitrailer or vehicle combination by the applicant for registration.

2. "Gross weight" means the sum of the empty weight in pounds of a motor vehicle combination plus the weight in pounds of the maximum load to be carried on the motor vehicle combination at any one time, except that for tow trucks, gross weight means the sum of the empty weight in pounds of the tow truck plus the weight in pounds of operational supplies and equipment.

3. "Vehicle combination" means a motor vehicle and the trailers and semitrailers that it tows."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
An additional clarification of Declared Gross Weight I found is this, while it was in the commercial side of definitions it is the clearest cut definition I could find as it clarifies the term "ascribed".
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Declared gross weight" means the gross weight in pounds ascribed to a motor vehicle, trailer, semitrailer or vehicle combination by the applicant for registration , EXCEPT THAT THE DECLARED GROSS WEIGHT SHALL NOT EXCEED THE MANUFACTURER'S WEIGHT RATING. (they supplied the capitals)
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The violation for overweight is also rather "busy" in the way it is worded and actually is covered in 2 seperate but related statutes.
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"28-5437. Operation with excess weight; violation; classification

A person who operates or who causes, permits or authorizes the operation on the public highways of this state of a vehicle singly or in a vehicle combination with a gross weight in excess of the vehicle's or vehicle combination's declared gross weight:

1. Is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor notwithstanding section 28-5438.

2. Is deemed to have set a new declared gross weight for the vehicle or vehicle combination.

3. Shall reregister the vehicle or vehicle combination and shall pay a fee for the new gross weight or the maximum gross weight allowed by law, whichever is lower, without any allowance or reduction in the fee as provided for in this article or the proportional mileage per cent factor as provided in chapter 7, article 7 or 8 of this title.

28-5438. Weight violations; civil penalty; classifications; procedures; evidence

A. A person who violates this article is:

1. Subject to a civil penalty either:

(a) As prescribed in subsection B of this section.

(b) Of one dollar if the excess weight is one thousand pounds or less.

2. Guilty of a class 3 misdemeanor for a second violation of this article within six months of the preceding judgment.

3. Guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor for a second conviction for a violation of this article within one year of the preceding conviction pursuant to paragraph 2 of this subsection.

B. A court shall impose civil penalties as follows:

If the excess weight is: The minimum civil penalty is:


1,001 to 1,250 pounds $100.00
1,251 to 1,500 200.00
1,501 to 2,000 300.00
2,001 to 2,500 400.00
2,501 to 3,000 500.00
3,001 to 3,500 840.00
3,501 to 4,000 980.00
4,001 to 4,500 1120.00
4,501 to 4,750 1260.00
4,751 to 5,000 1400.00

5,001 and over 1400.00 plus an additional $100 for each 1000 pounds of excess weight

C. An unregistered vehicle that is operated on a public highway is deemed to have a gross weight of one pound for purposes of the civil penalty imposed by this section.

D. If an officer finds that a person has violated only the axle weight limitation and not the total weight limitation, the officer shall request the driver to shift the load, as reasonable under the circumstances, to comply with the axle weight limitation and notwithstanding this section:

1. If the driver does not comply with the request of the officer to shift the load, the driver is subject to a civil penalty or a criminal penalty.

2. If the driver complies with the axle weight limitation after shifting the load and the excess axle weight was two thousand five hundred pounds or less:

(a) The officer shall not cite the driver.

(b) The driver is not subject to a civil penalty or a criminal penalty for a violation of the axle weight limitation.

3. If the driver shifts the load but does not comply with the axle weight limitation or if the excess axle weight is more than two thousand five hundred pounds, the driver is subject to a civil penalty or a criminal penalty for a violation of the axle weight limitation.

E. If a person is arrested for violating this article, the arresting officer may take the person immediately before a magistrate who is within the county in which the offense charged is alleged to have been committed and who has jurisdiction of the offense. If the person is taken before a justice of the peace, the person shall be taken before the nearest or most accessible justice of the peace with reference to the place where the arrest is made.

F. The officer or court collecting or receiving a civil penalty, fee, fine or forfeiture for a violation of this article shall deposit, pursuant to sections 35-146 and 35-147, the amount in the Arizona highway user revenue fund. If a civil penalty, fee or fine is collected, ten dollars of the civil penalty, fee or fine is deductible as reimbursement of costs from the amount collected, unless the fee or fine is less than ten dollars. The collecting official shall deposit the deducted monies with the city, town or county treasury of the city, town or county prosecuting or processing the violation.

G. A weight certificate or any other document that evidences the receipt of goods for shipment, that is issued by a person engaged in the business of transporting or forwarding goods and that states the gross weight of the vehicle with load that is in excess of the prescribed maximum weight limitation permitted by this article is prima facie evidence that the weight of a vehicle and load is unlawful.

H. If the commodity being carried is sold by weight, a weight certificate or any other document that evidences the receipt of goods for shipment, that is issued by a person engaged in the business of transporting or forwarding goods and that states the gross weight of the vehicle with load that is not in excess of the prescribed maximum weight limitation permitted by this article is prima facie evidence that the gross weight of a vehicle and load is lawful. The presumption that the weight of the vehicle and load is lawful may be rebutted by the weight of the vehicle and load as shown by means of the department's stationary scale or a public weighmaster scale."
-------------------------------------------------------------
Rather than try to summarize I just pasted the darn thing as I have no intention of doing THAT much typing. Besides you probably wouldn't believe my summary anyhow.

[47hook]

Actually I would, however I will check out the reference because I believe the operant phrase here is:

An additional clarification of Declared Gross Weight I found is this, while it was in the commercial side of definitions it is the clearest cut definition I could find as it clarifies the term "ascribed".

. A weight certificate or any other document that evidences the receipt of goods for shipment, that is issued by a person engaged in the business of transporting or forwarding goods and that states the gross weight of the vehicle with load that is in excess of the prescribed maximum weight limitation permitted by this article is prima facie evidence that the weight of a vehicle and load is unlawful.

H. If the commodity being carried is sold by weight, a weight certificate or any other document that evidences the receipt of goods for shipment, that is issued by a person engaged in the business of transporting or forwarding goods and that states the gross weight of the vehicle with load that is not in excess of the prescribed maximum weight limitation permitted by this article is prima facie evidence that the gross weight of a vehicle and load is lawful. The presumption that the weight of the vehicle and load is lawful may be rebutted by the weight of the vehicle and load as shown by means of the department's stationary scale or a public weighmaster scale."

Pretty much seems this is in the area of commerce, not recreation.

Also, didn't read this post before posting in another thread. Not trying to sandbag anyone.

In your career, did you ever stop an RV'r and weigh them? How did you weigh them? And if you did, and they were overweight, did you arrest them/ticket them? And if so, what was the outcome in court (if they didn't just throw up their hands and pay)? And if as a professional, if you have trouble understanding/researching this info in just one state, how the heck is anyone else going to? And again, I am not being disrespectful to any LEO. I am not trying to be smart or clever. I do believe that there are others that have much greater knowledge than I that say what I have said.

I also believe that law is not engineering capabilities/ratings/restrictions/limits. It more deals with human failings and behavior. If you look at ads for vehicles, they do all sorts of miraculous things. If everyone operated within the parameters of the capabilities of themselves and their equipment, laws governing any of this would not be needed and OEM's would actually tell you real limitations of the equipment. A little bit more like aviation limits...which also had stretch to them. But that was in my other 28+ year career...

[Motor31]

47hook,

It's pretty plain that you are not interested in anything but your own opinion. Fair enough. You asked for references and I provided. I also told you that all I had available to be were excerpts and what I had to do to get a definition for the term "ascribed". I could just as easily not bothered to let you know about it.

Load and weight restrictions are based on the same kinds of limits for those who transport a load or tow an RV. They are limited by the certified limits of the vehicle in question. There are not going to be "RV" specific load limits since the limits are not restricted to commercial operations just like there are no exemptions for speeding just because the sign does not say RV's on it.

The laws regarding weight use the engineering data from the manufacturer when the vehicle is certified through DOT and the documentation of the capacity is the GVW and in the case of tow vehicles, also the GCVW. That documentation is the basis for determining the load limits for enforcement purposes. The OEM's DO tell you what the limits are. It's in the documentation the owner gets for the vehicle and also on the stickers supplied on the vehicle itself. Your trailer had one attached to the inside. It had the weight data to include CCC, unladen weight and GVW or max weight. Perhaps you might have seen it.

As to whether I weighed RV's and prosecuted an owner, nope. Didn't have the opportunity to do so and that is also irrelevant to the discussion.

I have done my part in the discussion and provided what you asked for. I doubt that I will have any chance to change your mind on anything so won't waste any more of my time trying to do so.

I am assuming your flying time is past. The instruction I got when getting my pilot's licence as well as my A&P didn't indicate that FAR's had any significant "stretch" to them. The FAA inspectors I spoke to while getting my certificates certainly didn't give me any indication like that.