Brake Controller - Ford

[Mikey]

Quite possible that I will need a part to make my 2008 F450 with the Integrated Brake Controller work with the MS.

Website: www.carlisebrake.com

I have attached 3 PDF files. Any comments?

[igotjam]

Not sure if you have a different brake system than I do? Mine is activebrake from Texas (Carlise looks the same but different) Anyway, my Ford controller shows "trailer disconnected" quite often during transport. Have checked connections and used 2 different plugs with no improvement. I think the next step might be to replace the Ford Controller with something else.

[wackum]

I have a 2006 ford with the Ford controler. My trailer is a 2007 32TK3
with electric hydraulic brakes from the factory and it works great.

[thompsj]

I have a 2006 36 TK3 and was concerned that my Ford controller would not activate electric over hydraulic brakes. I sent an email to Dexter and received the following response:

"On 3/20/06, Belisle, Duane <DBelisle@dexteraxle.com > wrote:
J. Charles Thompson,

The DEXTER AXLE Electric over Hydraulic actuation (units made after March 2005) is compatible with the Ford Integrated Brake Controller. There are some units made by other manufactures (and some earlier Dexter Units) that are not compatible. For this reason Ford chose to not to endorse some units and not others so they published what they did in their manual. They most likely also did this for liability reasons.


Duane Belisle

Dexter Axle Product Engineer

574-296-7334

574-296-7320 Fax"

Happy camping.

[Hobo]

Originally Posted by Mikey

Quite possible that I will need a part to make my 2008 F450 with the Integrated Brake Controller work with the MS.

Website: www.carlisebrake.com

I have attached 3 PDF files. Any comments?

Mikey
I have just replaced my HD3000 with the Carlisle. The new models are compatible with the Prodigy and Ford controller. There will be a sticker on top of the carlisle body that will state in red if it is compatible, if not you will have to get the HBA-CAM2 wired into the system.
Rick

PS your link was broke, http://www.carlislebrake.com is correct

[sigo'suite]

I have posted previously on the Ford Integrated Brake Controller. Each to his own but I and a friend of mine both changed to the BrakeSmart and wouldn't go back to the IBC for anything.

http://www.brakesmart.biz/index.html

I still have the factory upgraded conventional brakes and he has the Kodiak Disc brakes.

We have a local trailer repair facility in Weatherford, Tx. which does a big business in horse trailer repairs and upgrades as well as brake controllers for heavy applications and he will sell only the BrakeSmart and Kodiak Disc brakes with the Carlisle brake actuator. He says he has replaced many of the Ford IBC and feels they are an accident waiting to happen for people towing heavy trailers. Under normal stop and go situations you might be alright, but you get into a situation where you gotta put the binders on hard for an extended period of time in an emergency stop and you gonna be in a world of hurt!! 3 Hail Marys and 2 Our Fathers prolly gonna be in order.

[igotjam]

I don't want to create and endless thread but for those with Active Tech (instead of Carlisle) in their trailer, I finally got through to a fellow at Active Technologies. They are aware of the problem with Ford Controllers. He explained (too Technical for me) why there is a problem...Not sure I understand but the voltage required by the brakes needs to be 13 VDC or higher and constant. The Ford controller voltage output varies and is not always 13 volts.
Anyway if you have Carlisle the add on shown on the first part of this thread is what you need. If you have an Active Brake they currently have no fix for this problem and suggest you contact Ford. I did..Ford suggests not using their controller with electric/hydraulic brakes.

[Mikey]

From Carlisle website

Until now, the Ford Tow Command option found on 2005 and up F-250/350 pickups and Tekonsha Prodigy and Sentinel controllers were not compatible with the Carlisle HydraStar trailer brake actuator. Using these controllers with the HydraStar resulted in false error signals from the controllers and “clicking” from the HydraStar. Both of these problems were the result of the electrical verification pulses sent out by the controller. When the pulses hit the HydraStar instead of the electric brakes on a trailer, it issued an error code. The pulse also momentarily turned on the HydraStar’s motor, creating the “clicking” noise. This start/stop off the motor could damage the HydraStar.

The HBA-CAM splices into the HydraStar’s wiring on the trailer and can be mounted anywhere it is convenient. The module intercepts the verification signals and electronically answers them showing everything to be normal. The error codes are eliminated* and the HydraStar motor “clicking” stops. The braking performance of either controller is not changed by the HBA-CAM. The HBA-CAM is not recommended for use with other manufacturers brake actuators that exhibit similar symptoms.

The HBA-CAM should only be used with the Carlisle HydraStar line of actuators.

[Mikey]

Street side front wheel - caliper seized - "pooched" pads and rotor
Contacted Carlisle today

Received from Carlisle - 3 hours later!

The 2008 Ford controller is not compatible with the HydraStar Actuators.
Carlisle recommends installing a compatible aftermarket controller. See the attached list for controllers.

Jess Hulse, ME
Applications Engineer
Carlisle Industrial Brake and Friction

Which compatable controller do you suggest I purchase?

[igotjam]

\good luck getting any of those controllers to work in a 2008 Ford. If you find someone who can make it work, I would like to know. I'm in Northern Ont now and would drive a bunch of miles to get mine done if you find anyone. I have tried Ford dealers and I'll bet 50 trailer places...no luck.

[rdunk]

Quote: "good luck getting any of those controllers to work in a 2008 Ford. If you find someone who can make it work"
---------------------------------------------
igotjam, there is another recent discussion related to brake controllers. It started out discussing the GM IBC, and that led to some discussion on the Ford IBC. The subject of that thread is "GM Brake Controller". If the 08 Ford IBC is basically the same as the earlier improved Ford IBC, then the installation of an aftermarket brake controller is not a problem. Most of the problem is just in finding someone to help with getting it done.

I briefly discussed in the GM thread how to deactivate the Ford IBC, and what was necessary for installation of the aftermarket controller. I have done this in two different F350 Fords, so it can be done ,unless Ford has changed the 08 IBC installation to something different from prior years.

For your convenience, I will post my comments from the other thread.

For Ford IBC........

"I went thru this integrated brake controller problem with the Ford controller, in my 2005 F350. I was getting disc brakes on the Suites. Ford said their IBC worked only with electric brakes. So, that meant I needed an aftermarket controller anyway. Yes, Dexter did redesign their brake actuator, and yes, Ford's IBC did (does) work with the Dexter brake actuator.

Yes, is was very difficult to find anyone who could explain how to install an aftermarket brake controller over the Ford IBC. I finally did determine how it was to be done, and did it on both the 2005 F350, and the current 2006 F350. Very simple, at least for my trucks. First, the instrument cluster module has to be reprogrammed by a Ford Service Tech to a "no trailer brake controller existing" condition. This step deactivates completely the Ford IBC. There are two connectors attached to the back of the Ford IBC. One connector is for the Ford IBC, and the other is for an aftermarket controller cable connection that must be removed from the IBC, for use with the aftermarket controller. Also there is a mating pigtail connector for aftermarket controllers, that is either furnished with your truck, or can be obtained from a Ford parts place. This pigtail connector is generally furnished with the trucks that do not have the IBC installed

I chose the Brakesmart controller, because I believe sensing the hydraulic brake pressure of the tow vehicle, for application of braking on the 5er by the controller, is the very best technology, for safely braking in all situations.

Any specific Ford IBC related questions in this subject area, feel free to PM me. I am no expert, but I have been thru this just a little".

[dz06]

Originally Posted by rdunk

Quote: "good luck getting any of those controllers to work in a 2008 Ford. If you find someone who can make it work"
---------------------------------------------
igotjam, there is another recent discussion related to brake controllers. It started out discussing the GM IBC, and that led to some discussion on the Ford IBC. The subject of that thread is "GM Brake Controller". If the 08 Ford IBC is basically the same as the earlier improved Ford IBC, then the installation of an aftermarket brake controller is not a problem. Most of the problem is just in finding someone to help with getting it done.

The 2008 Ford IBC is a completely new unit.

I've posted before and read other posts about the "Trailer Disconnect" problems with some electric over hydraulic disc brake setups.

Usually someone suggests that it is easy to replace Ford IBC w/aftermarket brake controller. I have spoken with Ford, Carlisle, Dexter, Tekonsha, BrakeSmart, MaxBrake and others. They all agree that Ford does not support electric over hydraulic disc brake systems. They also agree that you cannot just splice in or replace the Ford IBC. You will generate errors on the Ford. Some say that the errors can be reset; others say the errors cannot be reset.

Ford so far says the IBC must be disconnected, but do not say how to do that successfully. Ford implies that a special cable must be used, but local dealer does not have part number or instructions on replacement.

Several brake controller companies said to keep the Ford IBC installed and splice in their system only cutting the blue wire that actually drives the brake actuator in the trailer from the IBC and instead connect blue wire to aftermarket brake controller. You will still get an error.

The trailer I have uses the latest Hydrastar Carlisle actuator that Carlisle admits has compatibility problems, but only w/2008 Ford IBC. Dextor says their actuator ($700 appr) will work fine with 2008 Ford IBC, but my trailer manufacturer says they will void warranty on brake system if I change to Dexter.

Basically I bought a 2008 Ford F450 and a trailer w/electric over hydraulic disc brakes that cannot be made to work without getting some kind of error message. I asked sales of both Ford and trailer manufacturer if I would be ok before placing order for either. Problem occurred 1st tow after picking up trailer in Indiana which is 2500 miles from Morgan Hill, Ca where I purchased F450.

If I have to live with an error, which sucks, I'll just stick with the one "trailer Disconnect" that happens every so often. The braking is very smooth and powerful. Important Note: Ford will not say if it is a dangerous to tow when this false disconnect error is occurring. They of course only state that they have not verified operation w/electric over hydraulic disc brakes. See single miniscule (small type) foot note (not in IBC descriptive section) to that effect in sales brochure. In owner's manual there is a much bigger warning, but by the time you see that you've already bought the vehicle.

I am amazed that Ford just doesn't seem to care that they have a great system that doesn't work without errors for electric over hydraulic disc brakes. Seems like most buying a 2008 F450 will want to tow big. That usually means electric over hydraulic disc brakes.

By the way the Dexter unit that works with Ford is having problems with the GM IBC.

If you know of a sure fix that will allow Tekonsha P3 or BrakeSmart controller to replace 2008 Ford IBC without generating other errors or problems please post your solution. Include wiring details for dummies like myself.

[igotjam]

DZ06...agree it is not possible to just deactivate the ICB (numerous Ford dealers have told me "IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO DO". In my case when the "Trailer Disconnect" warning is displayed (almost always) the brakes do not always work. Sometimes they do but other times you must pump the brake pedal a few times before they activate. Not a good feeling.

[dz06]

Originally Posted by igotjam

DZ06...agree it is not possible to just deactivate the ICB (numerous Ford dealers have told me "IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO DO". In my case when the "Trailer Disconnect" warning is displayed (almost always) the brakes do not always work. Sometimes they do but other times you must pump the brake pedal a few times before they activate. Not a good feeling.

I would recommend having Ford check the IBC and the connection to trailer. While I do sometimes get the "Trailer Disconnect", it only happens when I brake and the brakes have always worked. It may be you actually have a bad IBC or poor connection. If that is not the case have trailer side checked for problems.

Just a thought. I wouldn't drive it at all that way. You might consider replacing Carlisle actuator with Dextor actuator. Dextor says DX-2 will work with 2008 Ford TowCommand.

I'm still pressing Ford for a solution and have request support from DoubleTree.

[rdunk]

Quote: "agree it is not possible to just deactivate the ICB (numerous Ford dealers have told me "IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO DO".
----------------------------------------------------------------
Well, IMHO, your first mistake is made when you take the dealer's word for something they probably don't know the first thing about. But, if the 08 Ford Integrated Brake Controller (IBC) is "totally new", then they could be right. However, can you actually buy the Ford without the IBC, or not??? If the IBC is an option, then I would guess that complete IBC deactivation would possibly be accomplished just like the earlier models.

When I was going through this in 2005, I found the dealers to be without any knowledge regarding how to install an aftermarket brake controller over a Ford IBC. I talked with the truck service group of the largest Ford dealer in Texas, and they didn't have a clue. Same with others.

Below is a post I made on this forum in 2005 that gives a little more detail regarding installation of an aftermarket controller over the Ford IBC.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I posted this message on the RV.net Forum, and am also posting here to help any MS specific folks that might have a need is this area.

This subject has been much discussed on the 5er forums, with many of us wondering how we were going to stop our 5ers having electric over hydraulic disc brakes with our 2005 Fords. I finally now have information that is accurate enough to make the Aftermarket Trailer Brake Controller (ATBC) installation, over the Ford Integrated Trailer Brake Controller (FITBC).

First, I am going to detail the simple summary steps to change from a FITBC to an ATBC on the 2005 Ford.

a) Disconnect the 10 pin connector from the FITBC.
b) Have your local Ford dealer reprogram the instrument cluster module
to "Trailer Brake Controller Not Present" condition.
c) Using the standard 2005 Ford pigtail brake controller connector,
connect the ATBC to the ATBC 4 four pin connector.
d) Done! (other controller specific steps may be required - ie
hydraulic connection, etc.)

Facts:
1) The FITBC module has two connectors on the rear of the module. One
of the connectors has seven wires, and it is connected to the
FITBC. The other is the four pin ATBC connector, and is actually
not connected to the FITBC. It is this four pin connector that
you remove from the module for connecting the pigtail connector
to, for ATBC installation. (reprogramming must be done first).
2) Whatever type of ATBC being installed, the pigtail, available from
the Ford dealer, should be spliced into your standard controller
harness, for connection to the four pin ATBC connector.

My experience:

I have successfully(?) installed a BrakeSmart controller in our 2005 Ford. I say "successfully" with a question mark, because I haven't actually towed with it yet (added- works perfectly). However the BrakeSmart does recognize it is connected to an elect. over hydraulic trailer brake system; the controller displays the applied braking pressures, and when the brake pedal is depressed, the trailer hydraulic actuator pressurizes, and should be activating the 5er disc caliper brakes. Yes the "proof" will be in the towing, but all looks good so far. (added - stops very well)

The above mentioned reprogramming was done by a local Ford dealer. The BrakeSmart was installed per the standard instructions for a late model Ford. I used a standard 2004 Ford BrakeSmart harness by cutting off the harness four pin connector, and splicing in the pigtail. The only other parts change is required because Ford changed the brake hydraulic cylinder connections in 2005 to metric threads. Therefore the "tee" furnished with the installation harness kit won't work. The brass "tee" that worked for me is a part number 7921. This fit the connection point for the forward-most hydraulic line. It is a real tight fit space-wise, but we got it in. Possibly the rear-ward connection point might be better because there is more room, but I believe it would require a different "tee". I located the controller in the small drop-down compartment just right of the steering wheel. The compartment can be easily closed when not using the controller. Right now, I have the controller fastened with Velcro. Also, we did not have to drill a hole in the firewall for the hydraulic pressure sensor cable, because there is adequate room in an existing firewall feed through rubber grommet.

By the way, I am not a technical/mechanical type! The above specific a) thru d) install steps were provided by a Ford technical person, and they are absolutely correct for my 2005 Ford (and later for my 2006 Ford)
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All of the above may be moot, if the 2008 IBC is completely different. One thing seems to be the same - the dealers still just don't know.

[Mikey]

FIBC for 2008 is different.
My dealer tech talked to a Ford Engineer.
FIBC sends a low voltage to check for "trailer connect."
Tech says there are a number of issues with the 2007 unit - he thinks they may have reduced the voltage for '08.
So......... to make a long story short, I need to completely replace the brake controller, including the rear plug. Can't use the one supplied by Ford.
I can get lights and 'turns" from the 4 pin. I'll have to run new power and brake wires.
Joy!